The argument over Pierre Poilievre’s security clearance has focused on what he can’t know. There’s another question worth asking: what happens when the people who do know can’t fully answer him?
I don’t think it’s as simple as PP not wanting to be muzzled. I do believe there has to be another reason why he does not want security clearance. Having security clearance means your background is thoroughly vetted. Just saying…
Agreed, Ginny. This all ties-in to the infamous "authoritarian playbook". I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, if not for all the other actions he does that support the same multi-step checklist.
Regarding the rules, this is why things blew up on Maxime Bernier when he was a minister in Harper's government: He had the clearance, had classified papers in his briefcase, took them with him on vacation (with a girlfriend who most definitely was NOT cleared for anything), and was reading away at the cabin's kitchenette over breakfast or some such. Point was, she could easily have checked the material while he was sleeping, in the bathroom/shower, etc. Or the cleaning staff could, etc., etc.
I think that every time PP raises his "no security clearance" argument, others in the House should push back, saying it is irresponsible of him. He's just showing that he would be an inadequate leader, because he can't demonstrate that he can handle sensitive information/issues.
I agree. How can he hold the government to account properly without security clearance? Why would holding the government to account involve exposing sensitive national security information to the public at large? That simply doesn’t sound reasonable.
Yes -- she definitely moved in their (and other biker groups, with questionable standing) circles.
At the time, Bernier was the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the documents in question were NATO-related briefing documents -- so this wasn't just a "Canadian" breach, but related to potential breaches affecting the entire treaty membership!
And I was wrong about it being at some ski resort or camp or some such -- he left the papers at her house!
After investigations, there was no sign that she had actually looked at the papers, or circulated them to anyone. She had not been "planted" into the relationship as a criminal spy or anything - just simply knew disreputable characters.
Still, this was a massive judgement failure on Bernier's part, so he did resign as minister (and for our American friends reading this, a year or so later, he resigned from the party (our Conservative party, which at that point had started its decent into what your Republican party is now like - though not as bad at the time). He went on to form a far-right political party, and is currently the leader of it. They have no seats in our current Parliament (he had been the only one from the party elected in the past, but lost his seat in our last federal election. They do attract a few percent of the popular vote, but not enough to win seats).
Maybe they should audit how he made 20 million from being a career politician. That might give them a clue as to why he won’t get a security clearance.
Personally, I think he’s hiding something that would be a problem for him if it were known. I suspect on the basis that he lies, and lies, and lies, and misrepresents pretty much everything out of his mouth.
Ginny, you’re right. He doesn’t have it because he couldn’t pass vetting. There’s another point to be made. Conservatives who are vetted and sit on this panel have an obligation to the country and their oath.
They can and should; one might even say MUST come out and say the Leader of the Opposition is ill informed, not informed, or full of shit on a particular subject while still maintaining fealty to their secrecy obligations.
Their silence is too cute by half. This is far, far from politics as usual in any environment, let alone the current one.
Not having the clearance should be self disqualifying from the position he holds.
So who says pp is one of the most effective communicators? I ve heard his supporters, of course, drum, that message in hard, and some of the numerous pollsters who mostly happen to be con oriented( they ll squeal at that but it s pretty obvious)solemnly declare it so.
Well he s been a consistent turn off for women, so he s only effective in a negative sense for us. He s an effective turn off.
And anyone who listens knows there are big truth gaps.
Personally I wonder and worry about manipulators of that narrative and who they might be.
You make a finely honed argument Fred, but the advantage to the politician without security clearance is marginal in my opinion, as most citizens understand that there would have to be restrictions on classified material- otherwise why is it classified? PP sits solidly with his core base and anyone who would be swayed by a 10 second clip of PP playing gotcha is already in his camp. He knows that. So he, or any politician, is weighing a slight dialectical advantage against really being in the know, having the full picture with which to judge policy decisions, something that should be very tempting. Conversely, refusing to get such pertinent intelligence really speaks to the shallowness of a politician's positions and his or her willingness to use style over substance. PP is probably that shallow, but I'm with other commenters- there's probably something in the vetting process that tips the scales for him.
Thank you for helping me understand the deeper connotations and ramifications of this existing, (in my mind) Canadian conundrum. I so hadn't figured it out. Clowns on the left, jokers on the right, stuck in the middle, not any more. Whew
Shouting victim again ! Always the fascist playbook of victimhood! Gaslighting lies and BS but rants about not being able to speak . Just give us all a break and shut the f… up!
I don’t think it’s as simple as PP not wanting to be muzzled. I do believe there has to be another reason why he does not want security clearance. Having security clearance means your background is thoroughly vetted. Just saying…
Agreed, Ginny. This all ties-in to the infamous "authoritarian playbook". I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, if not for all the other actions he does that support the same multi-step checklist.
Completely agree Ginny there is definitely something else going on
Bravo, Fred!
Well-covered, and thoroughly explored.
Regarding the rules, this is why things blew up on Maxime Bernier when he was a minister in Harper's government: He had the clearance, had classified papers in his briefcase, took them with him on vacation (with a girlfriend who most definitely was NOT cleared for anything), and was reading away at the cabin's kitchenette over breakfast or some such. Point was, she could easily have checked the material while he was sleeping, in the bathroom/shower, etc. Or the cleaning staff could, etc., etc.
I think that every time PP raises his "no security clearance" argument, others in the House should push back, saying it is irresponsible of him. He's just showing that he would be an inadequate leader, because he can't demonstrate that he can handle sensitive information/issues.
I agree. How can he hold the government to account properly without security clearance? Why would holding the government to account involve exposing sensitive national security information to the public at large? That simply doesn’t sound reasonable.
Great observation!
Was not Maxime's GF somehow linked to the Hells Angel's?
Yes -- she definitely moved in their (and other biker groups, with questionable standing) circles.
At the time, Bernier was the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the documents in question were NATO-related briefing documents -- so this wasn't just a "Canadian" breach, but related to potential breaches affecting the entire treaty membership!
And I was wrong about it being at some ski resort or camp or some such -- he left the papers at her house!
After investigations, there was no sign that she had actually looked at the papers, or circulated them to anyone. She had not been "planted" into the relationship as a criminal spy or anything - just simply knew disreputable characters.
Still, this was a massive judgement failure on Bernier's part, so he did resign as minister (and for our American friends reading this, a year or so later, he resigned from the party (our Conservative party, which at that point had started its decent into what your Republican party is now like - though not as bad at the time). He went on to form a far-right political party, and is currently the leader of it. They have no seats in our current Parliament (he had been the only one from the party elected in the past, but lost his seat in our last federal election. They do attract a few percent of the popular vote, but not enough to win seats).
Maybe they should audit how he made 20 million from being a career politician. That might give them a clue as to why he won’t get a security clearance.
Personally, I think he’s hiding something that would be a problem for him if it were known. I suspect on the basis that he lies, and lies, and lies, and misrepresents pretty much everything out of his mouth.
Really insightful stuff, there is a massive responsibility attached to knowing classified info.
Some people are not able for this - PP believes he’s one of them! (Also he likes to pretend he’s a better politician than most!)
I think not knowing the facts leaves the door open for criticism and provides plausible deniability. 701 knows what he's doing.
Ginny, you’re right. He doesn’t have it because he couldn’t pass vetting. There’s another point to be made. Conservatives who are vetted and sit on this panel have an obligation to the country and their oath.
They can and should; one might even say MUST come out and say the Leader of the Opposition is ill informed, not informed, or full of shit on a particular subject while still maintaining fealty to their secrecy obligations.
Their silence is too cute by half. This is far, far from politics as usual in any environment, let alone the current one.
Not having the clearance should be self disqualifying from the position he holds.
The problem is he’s unmuzzled and spouting absolute bullshit on an hourly basis.
So who says pp is one of the most effective communicators? I ve heard his supporters, of course, drum, that message in hard, and some of the numerous pollsters who mostly happen to be con oriented( they ll squeal at that but it s pretty obvious)solemnly declare it so.
Well he s been a consistent turn off for women, so he s only effective in a negative sense for us. He s an effective turn off.
And anyone who listens knows there are big truth gaps.
Personally I wonder and worry about manipulators of that narrative and who they might be.
You make a finely honed argument Fred, but the advantage to the politician without security clearance is marginal in my opinion, as most citizens understand that there would have to be restrictions on classified material- otherwise why is it classified? PP sits solidly with his core base and anyone who would be swayed by a 10 second clip of PP playing gotcha is already in his camp. He knows that. So he, or any politician, is weighing a slight dialectical advantage against really being in the know, having the full picture with which to judge policy decisions, something that should be very tempting. Conversely, refusing to get such pertinent intelligence really speaks to the shallowness of a politician's positions and his or her willingness to use style over substance. PP is probably that shallow, but I'm with other commenters- there's probably something in the vetting process that tips the scales for him.
That's a good read. That makes me think differently about how useless politicians are globally. And yours don't affect me and vice versa.
I believe this is just another way of seeding mistrust of the government.
Which is ironic since PP's end goal is to form government.
Finding out his wife’s background and what he’s really involved in 🤔
I had a job transcribing and I had to have security have security clearance and it had to be updated with each contract term.
Thank you for helping me understand the deeper connotations and ramifications of this existing, (in my mind) Canadian conundrum. I so hadn't figured it out. Clowns on the left, jokers on the right, stuck in the middle, not any more. Whew
Shouting victim again ! Always the fascist playbook of victimhood! Gaslighting lies and BS but rants about not being able to speak . Just give us all a break and shut the f… up!